tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post7137279289628291575..comments2023-09-27T12:44:03.592+01:00Comments on MsHedgehog: The Wrong QuestionmsHedgehoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-11278739568914493852014-08-03T19:30:05.774+01:002014-08-03T19:30:05.774+01:00Also in the past you've said words to the effe...Also in the past you've said words to the effect (please correct if I'm remember it wrong)that a way to tell how good you are is by seeing who actively asks you to dance - as opposed to who will accept if you hunt them down.<br /><br />Does this blog post mean that the opposite isn't true - ie you can't tell how good you are by who *doesn't* actively seek you out?Ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-2401938225320344592014-08-03T19:09:29.656+01:002014-08-03T19:09:29.656+01:00Do all of this apply to *leaders* wondering about ...Do all of this apply to *leaders* wondering about getting dances with specific "good" followers?<br /><br />Or are there other factors and some things which don't apply or apply differently?Ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-23025923936662509822009-09-11T12:04:14.668+01:002009-09-11T12:04:14.668+01:00Quite simply you can't create good leaders wit...Quite simply you can't create good leaders without access to good followers. You can't get passable leaders if you have poor followers. Ignoring followers once they pass "actively bad" is short-sighted.LimerickTangohttp://www.limericktango.com/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-43382756267417028422009-09-11T11:31:17.412+01:002009-09-11T11:31:17.412+01:00@ Anon - good luck
My thoughts on the idea@ Anon - good luck<br /><br /><a href="http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Art/Fiction.html" rel="nofollow">My thoughts on the idea</a>ghosthttp://www.imagekind.com/GalleryProfile.aspx?gid=19240442-2477-4908-ba4f-d50e6a0223f8noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-80989661530216551812009-09-10T22:31:00.406+01:002009-09-10T22:31:00.406+01:00Thanks everyone for the suggestions, very kind. I ...Thanks everyone for the suggestions, very kind. I think I'll try it - next step, find a teacher I trust enough to take this high risk, high yield strategy with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-46264260666878739062009-09-10T18:33:25.981+01:002009-09-10T18:33:25.981+01:00Anon:
I think "pushing beyond actively bad&q...Anon:<br /><br />I think "pushing beyond actively bad" is only one criteria to selecting a teacher. It is also equally important to consider the other ones Ms H mentions (e.g. type of dancing, music preference), so the teachers I've seen push their women students still may not necessarily work for you for different reasons.<br /><br />To find potential teachers, I suggest:<br />- if you go to milongas already, get friendly with and ask dancers you like what teachers they recommend<br />- look through the list on Ms H's site or Arlene's (londontango.wordpress.com)<br /><br />Also, Ms H's suggested long-term approach has many good things, and is worth consideration.<br /><br />Finally, I suggest push your teachers by asking thoughtful questions. That's what they're paid for. You get as much as you're willing to put in. Especially in a class, they will be biased towards the weakest student. Ask for personal attention if something's not working. Classes aren't for fun (well not entirely), they're for learning.Game Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01195479103119853847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-9979974845881695792009-09-10T18:08:19.744+01:002009-09-10T18:08:19.744+01:00@ Ms H
You are so right about taking classes for a...@ Ms H<br />You are so right about taking classes for about a year and then moving on to private lessons. I have had a few myself (on and off the dancefloor) and it is amazing what one can learn and work on in one hour with someone who actually knows how to lead (providing they are good!). Funny though how after my lessons and when I try out what I have learned, there is always one smarty pants leader who thinks he knows better!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-76074976339653532242009-09-10T01:46:28.782+01:002009-09-10T01:46:28.782+01:00@Anon - seriously, and based on my own experience ...@Anon - seriously, and based on my own experience (I have *not* attempted to work my way around all the teachers in London and at the moment I can't imagine doing so), here's one possible, not necessarily optimal, approach. <br /><br />Once you can accurately follow everything that gets thrown at you in social dancing, which takes about 1 year to 18 months of practicing in weekly classes plus regular social dancing, stop taking them. Instead spend the same monthly money on one private lesson once a month (or every two weeks in alternate months, or what works for you) with a teacher whose dancing you admire and whose character and taste in music appeal to you. The cost will be very close; adjust the frequency till you can afford it, or have two months on, two months off, or whatever. Start the first one by asking what the highest priority problem is that you should solve. Dance socially and practice till you've solved any important technical problems, then go back and ask for advice with musicality and expressiveness if you haven't already got on to that. Stop taking lessons whenever you have more than three things to work on at once; when you master one of them, book another set of lessons to check you've got it right and find the next thing.<br /><br />This is an edited, streamlined version of what I've been doing. I'm not saying it's optimal, but it's one possibility that isn't too expensive. Private lessons cost more, but you need far fewer of them because you get so much to work on. I'm personally happy with how it's working out so far. I also carry on taking any class that interests me from time to time.<br /><br />One point: I think this approach only works if the teacher you choose is one who dances socially a fair amount. That's an assumption. If you choose someone who's primarily a performer, you might get odd results. It also relies on you taking a lot of responsibility for going away and gradually mastering things outside the class. And it's more efficient in money than it is in time.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-2697350022599817462009-09-09T22:45:32.576+01:002009-09-09T22:45:32.576+01:00@game cat: please can you give examples of teacher...@game cat: please can you give examples of teachers who will try to push people who are not "actively bad". i haven't found any yet and i've tried many and it is getting harder in this economic climate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-2961917185230846502009-09-09T15:24:27.295+01:002009-09-09T15:24:27.295+01:00Some thoughts / suggestions
It does admittedly fa...<a href="http://www.jivetango.co.uk/TheNextSteps/DosForFollowers.html" rel="nofollow">Some thoughts / suggestions</a><br /><br />It does admittedly favour a Hedgehog view of what a good dancer is<br /><br />PS Yes the implication is ridiculous.ghosthttp://www.imagekind.com/GalleryProfile.aspx?gid=19240442-2477-4908-ba4f-d50e6a0223f8noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-10019975070023863592009-09-09T14:45:23.810+01:002009-09-09T14:45:23.810+01:00Good post and follow up comments.
Dancing noticea...Good post and follow up comments.<br /><br />Dancing noticeably better, and ensuring you are noticed for it, is only one lever a woman can pull to get invites from better dancers (at least from men who prioritise dance ability (dance-ability?)).<br /><br />I firmly believe that women who dance better can add A LOT to the shared experience. Generally, the better she is, the more freedom I have as a leader in terms of what to do and how I want to do it (according to the music of course).<br /><br />I'm surprised if not many people discuss what makes women good to dance with. Some things I hear frequently include:<br /><br />- Comfortable close embrace. Searches for and maintains the connection<br />- Follows the lead, and only the lead. Doesn't anticipate.<br />- Stretches the leg back in the walk, arching the foot to land toes first. <br />- Likes good music. On the beat. <br /><br />To which I would add: expressiveness with the music, preferably more than just adornments. At best, it becomes a conversation.<br /><br />I'm also surprised if women don't get enough good guidance in classes once they are beyond "actively bad". I've been lucky to be in classes where teachers would always have something to give women, even if they've already mastered what they immediately needed. Women: if you feel short-changed, find a better teacher. There are some out there.Game Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01195479103119853847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-13025028934957108752009-09-09T14:25:54.522+01:002009-09-09T14:25:54.522+01:00@LondonTango - exactly. The implication is blatant...@LondonTango - exactly. The implication is blatantly ridiculous; but it is the impression you'd get from ten out of a dozen classes. As soon as you stop doing anything actively bad, you won't get spoken to at all. The student knows she can't exactly be all that wonderful, but she has no idea what might come next. She can keep going to classes for multiple years without anyone ever acknowledging that she might be capable of more. So I think it's totally understandable that people get stuck there and often feel discouraged.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-91425861890354723632009-09-09T12:47:12.706+01:002009-09-09T12:47:12.706+01:00You are right about being asked the wrong question...You are right about being asked the wrong questions. I think here in the UK, there is a big issue about sociability combined with dance quality. I don't always dance with great leaders, but I mostly dance with people that I want to, for many reasons. I have a lot of friends and I will dance with them because they may have been there for me when I first started. I don't know what my skill level is. I do know that there are men that like to dance with me and I do feel I have improved considerably since I started.<br />I do not agree with the implication that women don't really add to the dance. Even a novice can add something with a sympathetic leader. We all have to start somewhere. I have had great dances with beginner leaders, so what is the difference here? To imply that women shouldn't bother learning to follow is ridiculous. It takes time to learn to follow and to feel what the other person is doing. To feel without thinking is a skill and means one is comfortable with the music and one's partner.<br />Frankly, I don't know what I would have done if my leaders hadn't either taken pity on me or fancied me or just wanted to teach me something when I first started.<br />It's a learning process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-26456124766215825742009-09-09T12:03:31.070+01:002009-09-09T12:03:31.070+01:00Great post MsH!Great post MsH!Clauditahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15421060921213007466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-31693075650063076132009-09-09T01:38:49.871+01:002009-09-09T01:38:49.871+01:00Something that's always annoyed me is when peo...Something that's always annoyed me is when people say that an excellent dancer can have an excellent dance with a beginner. It <b>sounds</b> like a good thing, but if you think it through it implies that women don't really add anything to a dance. Really women shouldn't bother learning to follow. Just turn up and dance with the excellent dancers and everyone will be happy. The beginner / intermediate men will just have to dance with each other till they get good enough.<br /><br />Meh. Yes an excellent leader can have an excellent dance with a beginner. But he can have an even more excellent dance with an excellent follower! Women make a vital contribution to the dance, far beyond pretty clothes and occassionally showing their knickers.<br /><br />But I also think the question is wrong. "How good do I have to be to fully appreciate the dance with a good dancer?" or "how good do I have to be for a good dancer to lead us both to the best of his ability?" are better questions I think.ghosthttp://www.imagekind.com/GalleryProfile.aspx?gid=19240442-2477-4908-ba4f-d50e6a0223f8noreply@blogger.com