tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post5826987865803776690..comments2023-09-27T12:44:03.592+01:00Comments on MsHedgehog: Lessons for beginnersmsHedgehoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-71018500851046356872010-07-07T17:21:25.621+01:002010-07-07T17:21:25.621+01:00@Evaldas and @LimerickTango - beautiful! And@MsHed...@Evaldas and @LimerickTango - beautiful! And@MsHedgehog - what a delightful, rich conversation you've started here. I keep meaning to write about it... but all I do is repost bits and pieces of what I'm reading here. *abrazos*hans peter meyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04099114639215723485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-67458067684567678872010-07-07T16:04:48.208+01:002010-07-07T16:04:48.208+01:00@Evaldas:
Yes you cannot simply tell a leader to ...@Evaldas:<br /><br />Yes you cannot simply tell a leader to "feel the music" and expect him to feel it. You can however tell him that he is expected to feel the music.LimerickTangohttp://www.limericktango.com/blog/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-78482073528905831922010-07-07T13:33:11.284+01:002010-07-07T13:33:11.284+01:00@Jantango
I couldn't agree more with your wor...@Jantango <br />I couldn't agree more with your words: "... I believe that anyone interested in dancing tango needs to start by listening to the recordings for at least a year. Then their tango will come out of them."<br />That would be close to my approach if one day I decided to teach tango :)) <br />I myself completely changed my dancing (leading) since I started DJing and had to listen to a bulk of Golden Age recordings. <br /><br />But... What is said, is more applicable to a man (leader) than to a woman. <br />"A man is in between of two females: the woman and the music" as one milonguero said.<br />Relation "music-leader" is very different from relation "music-follower" and is similar to relation "leader-follower" (music leads the leader). <br />This is why I believe that one have to teach male beginners differently from female beginners.<br />To my knowledge, it is exactly the approach of Golden Age epoch: men has first to learn how to follow and to listen to the music. Only then they had a chance to lead.<br />Is it possible socially nowadays? I'm not sure... But it makes a lot of sense.<br />Follower has to learn how to "read the leading", which is deeply different skill from "draw the leading". <br /><br />@LimerickTango<br />I agree with what you say almost completely.<br />The problem is that "basic musicality and posture skills" sounds simple, but for leaders is much more difficult to obtain it than for followers.<br />It is because musicality being a real priority for the leader cannot be taught by simply "telling him to feel the music".<br />As for expectations, when a couple of beginners start learning tango there are big chances that expectations of the woman quickly become higher than ability of the man to meet them. <br />I wouldn't call those expectations "misplaced". Simply followers are usually quicker in learning their basic skills (it takes a lot to reach certain level of quality, though).<br /><br />EvaldasEvaldashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17442008162367068085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-30392051458853743962010-06-29T17:40:18.758+01:002010-06-29T17:40:18.758+01:00> If anyone can listen to tango music for a yea...<i>> If anyone can listen to tango music for a year without dancing to it -- then there's no hope for them. </i><br /><br />Except that the vast majority of tango that's listened to nowadays is not dance music.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-17248771892786225152010-06-28T00:40:00.718+01:002010-06-28T00:40:00.718+01:00@Detlef, mmm yes, but what I am thinking is that i...@Detlef, mmm yes, but what I am thinking is that in close embrace you know more directly whether you got it right or not, but in open you don't have that automatic feedback so you can go on doing it badly as much as you like. And just keeping tuned into the lead in open seems so much more complicated to me nowadays (although maybe not if they stay there and don't change). Perhaps that's an illusion because of what I'm used to?msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-74381873361560471672010-06-27T03:25:38.846+01:002010-06-27T03:25:38.846+01:00@ David:
"So I suspect teachers who adopted t...@ David:<br />"So I suspect teachers who adopted that "basics only" approach may quickly find themselves teaching very small classes."<br /><br />Hmmm, not so sure. In our teaching, we work on basics all the time, built on the embrace, the posture, the walking, the communication and the music. In most of the classes (maybe 7 out of 10) we don't teach any 'steps' at all. And if so, they are the least important part of the class.<br /><br />Our clear 'basics only' approach has led to an agenda for 2010, which leaves us 5 weekends without work. :-)Detlefhttp://www.youtube.com/tangodesalonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-27807742129186745962010-06-24T10:40:32.832+01:002010-06-24T10:40:32.832+01:00@Tangocommuter, well, yes, they'll be moving t...@Tangocommuter, well, yes, they'll be moving to the music because it's very dancey music (at least that subset of it that's written and performed for dancing, is). But that alone doesn't enable to them to dance enjoyably with a partner.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-12425835100307099132010-06-23T23:32:05.514+01:002010-06-23T23:32:05.514+01:00If anyone can listen to tango music for a year wit...If anyone can listen to tango music for a year without dancing to it -- then there's no hope for them. They'll never be able to dance!Tangocommuterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14060601718946750364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-67139539222142628702010-06-22T15:58:56.303+01:002010-06-22T15:58:56.303+01:00Dear Ms. Hedgehog - thank you. I'm going to ta...Dear Ms. Hedgehog - thank you. I'm going to take your wonderfully simplistic (but not inaccurate for being so) schema, and some of the lively comments that have flowed from it as the occasion for my own meditations on the subject. *abrazos*hans peter meyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04099114639215723485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-32140278855988967662010-06-22T11:40:38.152+01:002010-06-22T11:40:38.152+01:00"I agree, in fact I suspect that if someone d...<i>"I agree, in fact I suspect that if someone did spend a year listening to Tango music without dancing, they'd develop an appreciation of the music, but from a musical point of view, not a dancing point of view."</i><br /><br />In my experience this isn't that unusual with women. Basically they like the music and so listen to it, often with a glass of wine. But it takes them a year (or more) to work up the courage to actually go to tango. <br /><br />So far I haven't witnessed any miraculous "Wow, I can dance tango" happenings among them.ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-68498858147911412642010-06-22T10:41:07.648+01:002010-06-22T10:41:07.648+01:00@Ghost: "I accept that listening to tango mus...@Ghost: "I accept that listening to tango music is a good thing, but I'm unconvinced that it is sufficient without some kind of teaching of how to apply musicality to it."<br /> - I agree, in fact I suspect that if someone <i>did</i> spend a year listening to Tango music without dancing, they'd develop an appreciation of the music, but from a musical point of view, not a dancing point of view.#<br /><br />For me, it's difficult / impossible to plan movements to music, without actually trying out those movements.<br /><br />If you listen to Poema 100 times whilst sitting down, you'll have very little idea of how to dance to it. But if you dance to it 20 times, you'll be very familiar with what you can do with the track for dancing.<br /><br />I'm happy to accept that in BsAs, milongueros are already familiar with the music before dancing. But that doesn't help if you're not familiar with the music. <br /><br />If think you need to move to the music to feel the music as a dancer.David Baileyhttp://www.learningtango.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-42243840998581817872010-06-21T12:28:08.727+01:002010-06-21T12:28:08.727+01:00@Evaldas: What you expose here is merely the mispl...@Evaldas: What you expose here is merely the misplaced expectations of the tango community.<br /><br />A leader with basic musicality and posture skills should be able to walk a decent tango with an experienced follower. Yet instead we burden his progress with complications that mar his connection to the music. We tell him that you must be able to do this, this, and this. When instead we should be telling him to feel the music.LimerickTangohttp://www.limericktango.com/blog/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-20227516149959786942010-06-21T11:55:19.165+01:002010-06-21T11:55:19.165+01:00@Jantango
"As a dance teacher, I believe that...@Jantango<br /><i>"As a dance teacher, I believe that anyone interested in dancing tango needs to start by listening to the recordings for at least a year. Then their tango will come out of them."</i><br /><br />Could you elucidate on this please? <br /><br />Most people who start Modern Jive have been listening to pop music for at least 10 years, often considerably more. Yet if you watch the majority dance, they are unaware / do nothing to mark breaks, accents, changes of speed in the music and so forth. Indeed a considerable number don't even dance in time to the beat. <br /><br />Of those that do dance musically, it's been my experience that they've had some kind of explanation and practice.<br /><br />Likewise I know many women who listen to tango music. I would not say that their tango just comes out of them. <br /><br />I accept that listening to tango music is a good thing, but I'm unconvinced that it is sufficient without some kind of teaching of how to apply musicality to it.ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-45239361157295145062010-06-21T11:34:55.444+01:002010-06-21T11:34:55.444+01:00@Sophie - yeah, when I last took a regular group c...@Sophie - yeah, when I last took a regular group class it was much the same. It's fine on certain terms, I'm just not satisfied with those terms. I get fed up with 'too many students think X' when I don't really buy (or no one is even making) the excuse for them to be allowed to think X for five minutes, while the whole concept and structure of the class are apparently designed to make them think X. Especially when it adds up to decades of failure. But at least we can try to inform the students.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-17223063714369286792010-06-21T08:16:40.255+01:002010-06-21T08:16:40.255+01:00I like bottom-up too (hi Limerick!), but I, as you...I like bottom-up too (hi Limerick!), but I, as you also say, I think top-down works for some things. For example, my current teachers seem to have really thought out the sequences they teach to get the students to practice certain types of technique, rather than just what looks "cool". It's useful. I just really wish they would verbalise why they are doing what they do. If only they said something like: "This is a sequence that works on dissociation" or whatever the particular exercise was set up to teach. Too many students still seem to think a particular sequence has to be danced exactly the same way, all the time. I think that is what I want to say to Beginners: (that is, people who are even more Beginner than me) "Sequences are just examples of what it is possible to do, they are a method; they are not the dance, not the thing you are actually learning." <br />Most dreaded words on the dancefloor: "Let's do the one we learned last week".Sophienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-9732830727084333122010-06-20T15:56:09.129+01:002010-06-20T15:56:09.129+01:00The majority of those who teach tango in BsAs use ...The majority of those who teach tango in BsAs use the "top-down" method because students see the results. The objective is looking good when you dance. That's why people demand new figures, and teachers are more than happy to give them what they want rather than what they need. <br /><br />The milongueros who teach have a different objective for they know that in order to dance tango, one has to feel it and have a connection in the embrace. Dancing has to begin with knowing the music. Then your dance comes from inside.<br /><br />As a dance teacher, I believe that anyone interested in dancing tango needs to start by listening to the recordings for at least a year. Then their tango will come out of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-41831641349084862612010-06-20T10:40:17.291+01:002010-06-20T10:40:17.291+01:00@Evaldas: I certainly have met multiple examples o...@Evaldas: I certainly have met multiple examples of leaders going from absolute beginner to well above average in under a year. But this is in a particular environment where there is a lot of real disagreement about what to aim for and hence people probably have different ideas about what 'average' means.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-41401660612631491262010-06-20T09:01:47.956+01:002010-06-20T09:01:47.956+01:00great post, interesting discussion!
I'm 90% on...great post, interesting discussion!<br />I'm 90% on "bottom-up" side. <br />I just want to add that when talking about learning/teaching and the beginning of the "tango career" in general, things are dramatically different for leaders and for followers. <br /><br />Follower with basic musicality and posture skills often can dance decent tango with an experienced leader just after several introductory lessons.<br /><br />It is not the case for a leader. If you are a beginner even very good follower wouldn't help you to dance good. Normally it takes months and years to reach even "average" level, whatever that means.<br /><br />Asymmetry is inherent to tango. That says that maybe approach to teaching of beginners must be different for leaders and followers.Evaldashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17442008162367068085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-28093337213828675692010-06-19T01:24:24.419+01:002010-06-19T01:24:24.419+01:00Very nice analysis MsHedge. I was in a "top ...Very nice analysis MsHedge. I was in a "top down" class for a long time my partner and I could never get to a place of putting it together. We switched to a famous local teacher and got the "bottom up" treatment. Eventually, (like years later) we became milonguero style dancers who are able to go out and be decent dancers. You know what, all that really matters is that we became steeped in the music. We heard all the standard tangos and learned the orchestras by osmosis and heard it in our sleep and now I DJ here in Seattle when I am not dancing. SO Cherie, via Ruben: I agree totally. Dancers need all the music to be inside of them.<br />But for early learners, MsHedgehogs words could save a lot of time and anguish.<br />EElizabeth Brintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13814965814308408209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-32328936431397269002010-06-18T17:13:05.211+01:002010-06-18T17:13:05.211+01:00@Cherie, top-down and bottom-up feel like more log...@Cherie, top-down and bottom-up feel like more logical descriptions to me, but they are fairly unimaginative so I'm not attached to them. Thanks for your contribution, as they are also rather arbitrary and metaphorical, so they can be misunderstood, and it's good to sort that out. Maybe inside out and outside in are actually better.<br /><br />@Ghost I also have the impression that things are changing, but in very mixed directions at the moment. This sort of thing is just my attempt at a positive contribution - beginners are IMPORTANT and I would still really like to hear from some.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-29804806876930554632010-06-18T16:42:30.819+01:002010-06-18T16:42:30.819+01:00A theory -
a) Develop a form of defensive floorcr...A theory - <br />a) Develop a form of defensive floorcraft that allows you to dance simply and musicality regardless of the surroundings.<br />b) Tell as many people as possible how it works<br />c) Skilled dancers use it to start dancing musically at milongas. <br />d) Beginners see it being done and want to learn it. <br />e) Teachers can then teach it without loosing business.<br /><br />This is kinda happening downstairs at Negrachas. A couple of years ago I thought "Ah hell with it, I want to dance close embrace, to decent music. So I will!" And I did. I've been looking around over the last month and thinking "When did all these people start dancing in close embrace down here?!"<br /><br />Imagine what would happen if the really good dancers did this :o)ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-54539106044173912402010-06-18T15:37:28.352+01:002010-06-18T15:37:28.352+01:00That all said, here's an anecdote of why the &...That all said, here's an anecdote of why the "big move" stuff is so attractive...<br /><br />I had a dance at a venue a week or so ago, with a relative beginner in Tango (but an expert in other dances). It was all nuevo, fast and furious, and she was doing a lot of big dramaatic steps, occasionally pulling me off-balance even. At the end of the dance, I thought, frankly, "Thank God that's over, it was hard work".<br /><br />But, and this is the thing, loads of people were saying what a great dance it was. Because it "looked good". <br /><br />I know it wasn't a good dance. My partner knows it wasn't a good dance. But a lot of the people watching? They thought it was <b>great</b>.<br /><br />When you have that kind of feedback, it's difficult to resist doing more of it. If fellow (competitor) teachers are dancing big and attracting students because of it, I can understand there's pressure to do the same.<br /><br />Maybe all teachers should be banned from London milongas... :)David Baileyhttp://www.learningtango.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-73062610550917617992010-06-18T15:18:51.773+01:002010-06-18T15:18:51.773+01:00@ David
It's more of a long-term idea, but at...@ David<br /><br />It's more of a long-term idea, but at some point for either 3rd Edition Ghost Guide, or Tango of Zero, I'd like to get footage of teachers / advanced dancers dancing socially in London / UK in a sane way (with their permission)ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-17020997850796569092010-06-18T15:13:49.149+01:002010-06-18T15:13:49.149+01:00I dont see much changing while the other popular d...I dont see much changing while the other popular dances (salsa and jive) remain so top-down. If we could change the culture of THOSE dances then maybe there would be a chance!<br /><br />But yes - on your main points - I couldnt agree with you more. Great post.Captain Jepnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-59555406601034114102010-06-18T14:53:16.094+01:002010-06-18T14:53:16.094+01:00Maybe MsH what you describe should be the "in...Maybe MsH what you describe should be the "inside out" approach?tangocheriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10012220622641996877noreply@blogger.com