tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post1318670795606153559..comments2023-09-27T12:44:03.592+01:00Comments on MsHedgehog: Help me not be a crazy ladymsHedgehoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-42785900860411934942011-03-10T20:11:31.338+00:002011-03-10T20:11:31.338+00:00The majority of them. There is ALWAYS reasonable f...The majority of them. There is ALWAYS reasonable fear of repercussions: everyone is perfectly well aware of the kind of things that will be, and are, said. Snob, bitch, unfriendly, elitist, up herself, thinks she's X. Enough of this silliness.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-50743520324147133642011-03-10T17:41:40.544+00:002011-03-10T17:41:40.544+00:00Yup, that will be useful too. Please name one.Yup, that will be useful too. Please name one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-25312732762080222532011-03-10T17:28:04.651+00:002011-03-10T17:28:04.651+00:00"Please name even one UK milonga where a woma..."Please name even one UK milonga where a woman may not say No to a man without fear of repercussions."<br /><br />FTFYghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-88339341193941010102011-03-10T17:25:12.577+00:002011-03-10T17:25:12.577+00:00MsH wrotes "Either the environment supports r...MsH wrotes "Either the environment supports real freedom of choice, or it doesn't."<br /><br />Please name even one UK milonga where a woman may not say No to a man.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-14881457528687208602011-03-10T17:22:23.335+00:002011-03-10T17:22:23.335+00:00Apologies to MsH, in re-reading the blog and comme...Apologies to MsH, in re-reading the blog and comments I can see I've strayed from the original intent. <br /><br />The argument is simply that men should not take it upon themselves to instruct beginners while dancing in a milonga. I whole-heartedly agree.<br /><br />Yes, it's possible to solve this by making it the woman's problem, but it makes far more sense to simply have an etiquette in place that simply says "DON'T DO THIS!"ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-58365173971160064632011-03-10T17:21:41.415+00:002011-03-10T17:21:41.415+00:00Yes of course that bad dancer will have an effect ...Yes of course that bad dancer will have an effect on the woman and that's why the woman who doesn't want to be treated like that says No. <br /><br />The only guys I've seen throw a tantrum at a refusal are the ones who (think they) learned to dance in classes, where yes indeed women must accept any guy they are given or leave. The milonga is a completely different situtation from class. In the milonga it is a good thing if that guy's tantrum affects other people, because that will help him and them learn that he's in the wrong place. He shouldn't be in the milonga a=inviting women until he'ss mature enough to accept that the woman has the right to choose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-36035587166260240752011-03-10T17:17:42.764+00:002011-03-10T17:17:42.764+00:00@Last anonymous: you misunderstand my point comple...@Last anonymous: you misunderstand my point completely. Frankly I am fed up to the back teeth with people constantly questioning and criticising our choices, and then leaving us swinging in the wind of harrassment and hatred when we are foolish enough to actualy dare to make them. Either the environment supports real freedom of choice, or it doesn't. That depends on the behaviour of everyone there. The freedom you refer to is entirely imaginary unless it is supported by actually existing social norms and not by lip service.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-78071538666238863002011-03-10T17:10:10.343+00:002011-03-10T17:10:10.343+00:00@Anon
Are you speaking as a guy or a woman?
Sad...@Anon <br /><br />Are you speaking as a guy or a woman?<br /><br />Sadly some people who believe that people must say "yes" to them will then behave incredibly rudely to people who say no to them. I've seen lectures, tantrums, heck even groups making snide comments. Now sure a woman can chose to sit there calmly and ignore this, but why should she have to? <br /><br />Let's say she says "no" to one guy who then throws a tantrum. You don't think that will have any effect at all on the other women who see this?<br /><br />And taking the example in the original post where a guy dances with a beginner and manhandles her - you don't think that will have any effect on how she dances with the next guy or if she comes back at all?ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-12215534177151862722011-03-10T15:58:45.063+00:002011-03-10T15:58:45.063+00:00"Whether a woman can say "No" depen..."Whether a woman can say "No" depends on the dynamics of the milonga, unless of course she is willing to say "no" walkout and never come back again.".<br /><br />Nonsense. It depends on nothing but herself. She can say no to any guy she doesn't want and then wait for any guy she does want. That's how it works in milongas all over the world.<br /><br />"And as it affects everyone else"<br /><br />It does not affect everyone else. Who a girl says Yes or No to is her own business.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-13984545649862102702011-03-10T15:01:19.692+00:002011-03-10T15:01:19.692+00:00@Anon
Milongas are basically ecosystems - everyth...@Anon <br />Milongas are basically ecosystems - everything is interlinked. What one person does has an effect on everyone.<br /><br />A milonga where all the women have a comfortable mechanism for choosing who they dance with will be different from one where they don't and indeed different from one where some do and some don't.<br /><br />Whether a woman can say "No" depends on the dynamics of the milonga, unless of course she is willing to say "no" walkout and never come back again. Indeed whether no=no or no=maybe or no=yes will depend on the milonga.<br /><br />And as it affects everyone else, then yes, it is everyone elses' business too.ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-39936693651277031182011-03-10T13:58:05.862+00:002011-03-10T13:58:05.862+00:00MsH, I think you are fundamentally wrong when you ...MsH, I think you are fundamentally wrong when you say the woman "is NOT the person with the power or obligation of preventing this physical and mental abuse." Every woman has that power - it is the power of saying No, Thank You. You're getting upset about women who don't say No when you think they should. Well, is that really any of your business?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-80402058038102579332009-09-02T23:22:27.722+01:002009-09-02T23:22:27.722+01:00@Limerick, Yes - that is the most effective cure. ...@Limerick, Yes - that is the most effective cure. Partly because it fixes any problems the woman actually has, but mainly because it gives her knowledge and the confidence that goes with it.<br /><br />My first teacher did dance with me regularly, at least in class and sometimes socially, so I knew I could follow a good dancer. That's a very effective defence.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-39740681350066342022009-09-02T23:13:57.480+01:002009-09-02T23:13:57.480+01:00I seem to remember it being mentioned on this blog...I seem to remember it being mentioned on this blog that it was very rare for teachers to dance with their students. Perhaps if they did then when the unfortunate follower receives a lecture she can react along the lines of "well I've just had a tanda with teacher X and he said nothing* so I don't know what you are going on about"<br /><br />*because they should know betterLimerickTangohttp://www.limericktango.com/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-19359071607089978532009-09-02T21:12:30.406+01:002009-09-02T21:12:30.406+01:00@AnnK "We Londoners are far more relaxed"...@AnnK "<i>We Londoners are far more relaxed</i>"?!? Apparently he thinks <i>he</i> can relax and behave as boorishly as he likes, and make someone else's evening as unpleasant as happens to suit him, and he was surprised when someone dared stand up for herself. You must point him out to me at a milonga some time. I <i>have</i> heard of someone who behaved equally boorishly <i>for the purpose of selling lessons with himself</i>: a pretty ridiculous operation. Someone who can't behave like a gentleman on the dancefloor is thereby disqualified from teaching any partner dance, I don't give a toss what else he can do.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-69420271516439519082009-09-02T01:23:17.774+01:002009-09-02T01:23:17.774+01:00I understand that, in the old days, guys used to d...I understand that, in the old days, guys used to dance with guys until they were judged ready to dance with women. On the few occasions when teachers have put me in the 'follower' role, I have learned a great deal from the experience. There is only so much you can get through the use of your imagination and, frankly, with the teacher mimicking your mistakes as a leader, the personal experience of these mistakes, in the role of follower, is a clincher. Plus, you get the chance to make some mistakes in the other mode, which also increases your empathy with 'followers' in general. I think teachers should encourage more male/male dancing for those serious about improving. <br /><br />But this is unlikely to address the issue of bullying. Although I have had some unpleasant experiences with followers who don't like to follow or who had no patience for my fumblings as a beginner, these paled into insignificance alongside my wife's experience of boors and bullies, some of whom told her how wrong she was, only to be roundly corrected by the teacher on some occasions. <br /><br />What would happen if all the readers and contributors to Ms H's lovely blog pages were to contact all the London teachers and request that they spell out this basic etiquette to ALL BEGINNERS... 'Feedback between dancers should never be given, without permission. It may be offered but must never be imposed. It should always be balanced - two items of positive feedback for each suggested adjustment. If someones feedback to you breaches these rules, you should probably ignore it. If someone's feedback seems confusing or rude, discuss it with other dancers and with your teachers. There is no need to tolerate unpleasant behaviour from dance partners.' Would that work...?TangoTomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-58468926587367425722009-08-20T22:32:42.478+01:002009-08-20T22:32:42.478+01:00Going back to your discussions about code of condu...Going back to your discussions about code of conduct: I have had an experience some while ago with a guy who claims to have been dancing for fours years, yet felt compelled to correct me on the dancefloor during a milonga, suggesting that I would improve very much by taking private classes. I told him off straightaway and actually became so upset that we entered a debate about dance etiquette, something I was taught already at the age of 15 due to ballroom lessons which were normal for people of my generation and nationality. (Notice to self: speaking like that makes you officially "not young".)<br />Furthermore, any website maintained by tango devotees as well as plenty of books mention etiquette and explain what to expect during class, practica and milonga. When I mentioned my learning, I got surprise as a response together with the notion "We Londoners are far more relaxed". <br /><br />Having spoken to several visitors from other countries, I have gained the impression, though, that the London tango scene is perceived as lacking "grace" and being slightly rude. It seems to me that some teachers do not <i>want</i> to introduce manners and codes of conduct - even if made aware of such observations or experiences - for fear of loss of income. Sadly, they are right. They are left behind with those that do indeed not put much focus on behaviour and lose out on those that do.<br /><br />What would help those followers new to tango who have just been lectured? Part of the "problem" is that we all are drawn to tango so much that we want to dance it on social events, even if our skill level is not yet entirely set up for it. We know it and this is what makes us hooked to taking classes regularly - we have eyes to see how and what other people dance on a milonga and we want to get there, too. <br /><br />It seems to me that these nasty experiences of either being lectured on the dance floor, receivers of angry looks or even a dreaded "Thank you" after the first song are what most followers in London go through.<br /><br />Behaviour is part of the reason why I don't go to milongas at the moment, my "Thanks but I'm afraid I will sit this one out"-list is longer than the list of leaders I'd like to dance with. In the meantime, my advise would be to continue with taking classes, technique or otherwise, as your improvement will eventually, and usually very soon fend, them off. <br /><br />It would be great if a lady would come up to her and remarked not to worry and offering some kind words, space to vent, and maybe, if she likes that person, have a male dancer offer her a dance to "obliterate" that bad experience. And next time a nod and a smile so that she may feel welcome to the crowd.<br /><br />I think that would help.AnnKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-61585230784251725882009-08-11T12:30:22.714+01:002009-08-11T12:30:22.714+01:00I did, it's very interesting, but Simba didn&#...I did, it's very interesting, but Simba didn't explicity mention the idea of dead space. If you look at the picture at the top of his article, it's possible to sit anywhere around the dance floor. If however you removed all the chairs in front of the stage that would create a "dead space" where you could no longer sit. Another example is having the table where you pay / shoes / cd player are laid out on one side of the dance floor rather than tucked away. I think it creates a space that people can move into and so enhances the flow, but it could be coincidence as you say - lots of variables...ghosthttp://www.imagekind.com/GalleryProfile.aspx?gid=19240442-2477-4908-ba4f-d50e6a0223f8noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-32674406807991220022009-08-11T11:19:26.029+01:002009-08-11T11:19:26.029+01:00@ghost, I don't think I know what you mean. It...@ghost, I don't think I know what you mean. It might be coincidence to do with *how* the seating is laid out. Do have a look at Simba's piece. I think I might close comments here, as layout is a very interesting topic in its own right which I think I'd like to consider seperately.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-79451690373703515942009-08-11T11:03:00.409+01:002009-08-11T11:03:00.409+01:00@ghost: No, that doesn't match my experiences ...@ghost: No, that doesn't match my experiences at all. What would be in those "dead spaces"? Why would they benefit the flow?<br />I think Simba's article is just about perfect, he says it all, I have no gripes and nothing to add.<br />Make sure you also read the comments there.Andreashttp://www.tangokombinat.de/uk_news.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-85522483792669390962009-08-11T00:04:00.768+01:002009-08-11T00:04:00.768+01:00I think the places with the best natural flow on t...I <i>think</i> the places with the best natural flow on the dancefloor have "dead" spaces around the floor where you can't sit and the worst have continuous seating. Does that match other's experiences?ghosthttp://www.imagekind.com/GalleryProfile.aspx?gid=19240442-2477-4908-ba4f-d50e6a0223f8noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-58530852639461826102009-08-10T22:36:59.328+01:002009-08-10T22:36:59.328+01:00I can see it now ... BANG!I can see it now ... BANG!msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-54010930690308353762009-08-10T22:17:46.353+01:002009-08-10T22:17:46.353+01:00I got the frown, she got the shotgun. Now ya bette...I got the frown, she got the shotgun. Now ya better not dance to the cortina, mate... ;-)Andreashttp://www.tangokombinat.de/uk_news.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-22262025910445974802009-08-10T19:31:58.050+01:002009-08-10T19:31:58.050+01:00I definitely think that the small attentions to &#...I definitely think that the small attentions to 'animal' behaviour <a href="http://tinyurl.com/kww8xy" rel="nofollow">Simba</a> described have a LOT more influence than most people realise. That's one of the reasons I mention 'layout' and 'hospitality' when I do the milonga guides, although I don't know enough to work out what they should really mean. It goes without saying, to me, that the raw material is much the same everywhere, with minor and self-cancelling variations.<br /><br />I find it very plausible that these things have a lot more influence than teaching as such - partly for the many reasons discussed above which limit the influence of teaching, but also because these things are just <b>very</b> powerful. Layout is <b>very</b> powerful. Ask J. Sainsbury. There's a reason why the things at the checkout are those things there and not something else or somewhere else, and the reason is that layout works.<br /><br />I have only just started to notice that DJing can also be powerful - but I find that increasingly plausible too. (It certainly sends people up and down stairs in a fairly predictable way).<br /><br />Are you sure it's not Lynn with the frown? hehehemsHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-55378345668296978692009-08-10T13:54:36.729+01:002009-08-10T13:54:36.729+01:00I guess basically what I am saying is: Create a sa...I guess basically what I am saying is: Create a sane environment and sanity just might prevail.Andreashttp://www.tangokombinat.de/uk_news.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-2702500348352436572009-08-10T12:24:13.682+01:002009-08-10T12:24:13.682+01:00Let's see. It seems to me it has been establis...Let's see. It seems to me it has been established that we can't control where and what people learn or get in their heads, especially in a scene as big and diverse as the London tango scene. And also it must be said that there are hopeless cases that no teacher can turn into a decent dancer, and nothing short of mind control or threat of violence can neutralize them.<br />So the next port of call is the milonga, which is anyway where the problem becomes a problem. And frankly, to me the milongas seem to be worsening the problems instead of alleviating. Here's why: a milonga needs structure, in several ways. Lack of structure leaves people in a cultural limbo (culture here referring to "tango culture" or "milonga culture") that produces the anythinggoesiness so visible in most UK milongas. Structure comes from several sources, and they are named in Simba's excellent post about how to organize a milonga here:<br />http://tinyurl.com/kww8xy<br />Usually milongas are a dog's dinner here in Devon, too, but my own Milonga Marina, curiously, wasn't, although we certainly had the same people there. It's just that nobody wants to be frowned at by me ;-) and also we have a proper setup (nice-looking tables around the floor etc) with proper music in tandas with cortinas that has an overall energetic arc over the evening. People get to dance a lot, they clear the floor during cortinas, there's never a rush to grab a partner, people are relaxed and there's a friendly buzz in the air. Oh yes, and to those who keep saying the codigos don't work here, the cabeceo was the main method of inviting. Another side effect is a clear line of dance, simply because everyone feels less frantic and can actually savour the music and their partner.<br />All this creates a calm, relatively stress-free and friendly environment that allows people to be less self-centered and much more communal. What can be seen in the St Wendel videos is not a result of people being nicer in Germany than here, it is to some degree a clientele used to actual social dancing in the as-opposed-to-antisocial sense of the word, but mostly the overall structure of the milonga.<br />Now there might still be totally incurable idiots around, but they will not feel encouraged by the general lawlessness, and also I think it is easier to ostracise and shame them, and either turn them around or drive them off.Andreashttp://www.tangokombinat.de/uk_news.htmnoreply@blogger.com