tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post620203588024571978..comments2023-09-27T12:44:03.592+01:00Comments on MsHedgehog: Things that make me feel SleazedmsHedgehoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-80528638313929941892011-07-08T16:26:12.707+01:002011-07-08T16:26:12.707+01:00On the topic of sleaze, this is one of the sleazie...On the topic of sleaze, this is one of the sleaziest nights I've experienced (and it was in good old BA): <br /><br />http://tangoaddiction.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/the-salon-of-sleaze/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-17644447466325582852011-05-20T12:17:00.533+01:002011-05-20T12:17:00.533+01:00one of my most unsettling experiences was the guy ...one of my most unsettling experiences was the guy (at carablance actually) who thought it appropriate to lean over and *kiss me on the forehead* after i'd danced with him. does that count as patronising/ sleazy/ just plain wrong? <br /><br />yuk yuk yukAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-56779299968217454222010-03-23T11:44:10.427+00:002010-03-23T11:44:10.427+00:00I once danced with an older guy in Buenos Aires. D...I once danced with an older guy in Buenos Aires. During the dance he started to get a hard-on! I tried to increase the distance, but he just held me tighter.<br /><br />I afterwards talked to a argentinean friend, and she recognized him from my description and said that he always does that.<br /><br />Totally sleazy!Sigridnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-9179060452858606722010-03-18T18:43:15.586+00:002010-03-18T18:43:15.586+00:00@ghost: that's a fairly good description of th...@ghost: that's a fairly good description of the rule-of-thumb women actually follow, but if there is any doubt (which there always is if you don't know the person) we will generally assume that he's a weasel with a sense of entitlement, because even if the probability of that is low, the consequences of protest if he is are very severe. So the best way to protect our dignity and defend the rest of our evening is to stick it out and not dance with him again - unless the instance of perving is very extreme.<br /><br />We tend trust our radar as far as intention goes. If it's accidental or can be accidental we generally won't <i>feel</i> particularly sleazed until we're sure it's not. It's not a mechanical thing, our perception of intent is important.<br /><br />It might be the longest - we've had well over 30 before but I don't think 40.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-61921983727080879142010-03-18T18:34:45.918+00:002010-03-18T18:34:45.918+00:00@Lizzy - the Paddington stare is a pretty good def...@Lizzy - the Paddington stare is a pretty good default. On your other point, yes, it's up to us, or should be - subject to other people endlessly questioning our choice, of course, and never saying a word to the perv under any conditions. I have another post about that but I left it in draft, to review it in a better temper.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-57407668388563005742010-03-18T18:01:22.218+00:002010-03-18T18:01:22.218+00:00Bill Kipp came up with the solution to this. Simpl...<a href="http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/NNSDmissinglinkvidfull.htm" rel="nofollow">Bill Kipp</a> came up with the solution to this. Simply put different people have different social mores and awareness. I was truly horrified to discover that I'd managed to have my hand on a woman's breast while dancing <b>and been completely unaware of it</b>. I honestly didn't think this was possible. (I was literally exhausted though).<br /><br />Bill's take is this - it's not the action, it's the reaction. Tell a "nice guy" that he's got his hand on your breast and he'll be mortified, apologise and stop doing it. In slightly milder cases involving body space it may take a person a while to break the habbit of being too close.<br /><br />However a perv will immediately go into "weasel mode" tying to rationalise the behaviour, make it your fault etc. "Why are you being so stroppy? That's the way I was taught by Maestro blah blah blah". Sneaky ones will apologise but then keep doing it.<br /><br />Thing is, once you recognise the patterns you know who you're dealing with. <br /><br />And like trolls there's no point reasoning with pervs. If they want you to justify your actions, don't. They've no interest in understanding what they're doing wrong. It's just a means to weasel around your defenses. <br /><br />NB this applies to guys as well as women<br /><br />PS Is this the longest thread on the MsH blog - just curious?ghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-49798120688558287562010-03-18T14:59:14.175+00:002010-03-18T14:59:14.175+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-55344179263061738492010-03-18T08:47:58.802+00:002010-03-18T08:47:58.802+00:00Hmm... that is food for thought, Perhaps an explan...Hmm... that is food for thought, Perhaps an explanation IS required. <br /><br />Something along the lines of:- <br />"excuse me, I can't hope noticing that you seem to be breathing very heavily, are you alright perhaps we should take a break?"<br /><br />It's non-judgemental and actually gives the opportunity for a little more awareness<br /><br />Paddington's "cold frosty stare" may also deter someone who thinks it's funny to touch me where its ticklish to do it again.<br /><br />That or a rather quietly enenciated "I would prefer it if you didn't touch me there again"<br /><br />Unfortunately, both options seem in themsleves a little extreme so I wonder if I'll ever use them, to excuse myself a the end of the dance and put them on my no go list for me seems a more dignified and less confrontational response<br /><br />At the end of the day its our choice so in essence the ball is in our court.Lizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04307683017776011855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-83095409597542032582010-03-17T23:56:30.445+00:002010-03-17T23:56:30.445+00:00EWWWW!!! As you say, the sort of thing that would ...EWWWW!!! As you say, the sort of thing that would only happen once. That's pretty extreme though. The nuclear option might be worth it, as long as you didn't think he would follow you off and require you to explain in front of other people what exactly he'd done.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-31611853545066872582010-03-17T22:35:01.695+00:002010-03-17T22:35:01.695+00:00Hmmmm my first post may have got lost so apologies...Hmmmm my first post may have got lost so apologies for duplication!<br />Hi, Ms Hedgehog, I particularly hate guys who when they find a ticklish spot and I flinch, work it. It is really not pleasant and very invasive. I can't help being ticklish, I don't laugh, giggle or play-up, so when it is "worked" rather than avoided, I feel it crosses the line.<br /><br />The second thing I find really pervy is heavy breathing. OK, he may be asthmatic, but it sets my nerves on edge so regardless of intention I feel sleazed.<br /><br />At the end of the day though they do it once. A second dance is generally not given, or a second tanda. <br /><br />The choice is mine, and I'm not shy of exercising it (see command line cabecoa) <br /><br />http://lizzys-tango-log.blogspot.com/2010/02/command-line-cabecae.html#linksLizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04307683017776011855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-38162320502266201772010-03-17T21:03:59.442+00:002010-03-17T21:03:59.442+00:00@Lizzy - go on. Let's give them the opportunit...@Lizzy - go on. Let's give them the opportunity to think - hmm - do I do that? Anyway I thought I'd covered the ground pretty generously so I'd love to know what I missed.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-57185801079137895012010-03-17T09:44:17.821+00:002010-03-17T09:44:17.821+00:00A truely remarkanble post.. Just flipped through s...A truely remarkanble post.. Just flipped through some comments but not all. I daren't post my absolute hate up here incase we start a training ground for tango pervs. <br />But yes It can and does happen. But very rarely and only ever once with me<br />Thanks Ms Hedgehog. Someone had to say itLizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04307683017776011855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-24319749784842730782010-03-15T04:24:16.937+00:002010-03-15T04:24:16.937+00:00I have just read most of the posts on this subject...I have just read most of the posts on this subject.<br />I find it is definitely based on cultural differences and personal similarities.<br /><br />I was brought up in Argentina on Victorian prudish handshake-at-a-distance-mores, so I understand all your discomfort about sleazy body contact.<br /><br />When I did contemporary dance and had to do a lift, and my hand slipped over a tit, I felt GUILTY of sleazy misconduct. Which it wasn´t, it slipped! My partners just reasured me it was all part of a day´s work and I managed it eventually, and got over the guilt and enjoyed it.<br /><br />When I started Tangoing it was so difficult to master, that there was no time to even think about those things.<br />One needs to feel that one is getting it right, SPECIALLY as a man (that, by the way, does lead! At least in Tango). <br />The close hold is nice. The warmth of the other person is nice. The sway and turns is nice. It´s all nice, if you feel safe. As in any love making. <br />That, as far as the dance goes. Beyond, it can become sleaze.<br /><br />Salsa is all about seduction and sleaze. And what fun it can be! <br />On the other hand, I have seldom been in a safer night/dance environment than a Milonga.<br />Women ONLY accept to dance with whom they want to. With the “cabeceo” (head nod) there is no need at all, to even move your head, to say no. You just keep scanning the scene, as if you had never seen his invitation to dance. <br />If you did accept and it gets out of (or into his) hand, you just politely say thank you, at the end of the tune, or tanda preferably, and sit down. End of story.<br />One must not get offended with these suggestive acts. After all, they are an expression of appreciation of something of you, though maybe not what, or as, you would like it to be shown.<br />The whole etiquette of the Milonga is that nobody is put in a position of ridicule (a very Argentine concern) before the crowd. That is why the men do not walk up to you to ask you to dance, lest they be refused!!! "Oh!! What do I do now?!!! Everybody has seen me refused!!! Nobody will ever love me again".<br /><br />Another local belief is that foreign women are easy. Sometimes it is true. But what is best, is that they will soon leave.<br /><br />Argentine and Latin “machos” feel they must always prove their worth as Latin lovers, specially to sensuality starved foreign women, and be appreciated as the best. <br />This is much less frequent than fantasy will claim.<br /><br />Most of the things that make you feel sleazed happen in any culture and are simply an expression of clumsiness and insecurity.<br />In Britain, this thing about a close embrace seems like an opportunity, which it is, and immediately encroaches on most people´s safety circle, which must be approached gently. <br />Even for some Argentine women and men, believe it or not, it can be uncomfortable.<br /><br />So, just stay cool and move on when you feel unsafe or uncomfortable. In any environment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-70241274835350467332010-03-14T23:33:54.187+00:002010-03-14T23:33:54.187+00:00Ho yes, Anonymous, what marvellous memories of a t...Ho yes, Anonymous, what marvellous memories of a totally spontaneous and totally unsleazy experience in the warm waters and soft mud of the River plate. Chatting, star gazing, watching the electric storm over Buenos Aires, wondering if it extended south as far as the beach Maria P would be sitting on (after declining to come with us to Isla Martin Garcia, silly lady, wrong decision). Until I decided it was time to go back ashore and realised a row of teenage boys had appeared all along the bank so you (or was it Dennis - you I think) gallantly ran all the way back to our guesthouse to fetch my togs and hand them to me under the water.<br />Still have the green hat. and the photos somewhere in a box. <br />yes will be seeing Dennis & Carina on 28 April when i land in BsAs.<br />and yes Ms H is great fun, am sure you'd hit it off, that's the great thing, whenever I like two people and introduce them they nearly always like each other. <br />@ Ms H, thanks so much for reuniting me with Anonymous my long lost friend of 17 years who I've haven't seen since he moved from BsAs to La Cumbre about 7/8 years ago.Tango en el Cielonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-32452589745370797522010-03-14T02:51:16.516+00:002010-03-14T02:51:16.516+00:00Dear Tango en el cielo, I send you a biiiig hug an...Dear Tango en el cielo, I send you a biiiig hug and kiss (not sleazy, just a nice one). I always remember crouching in the warm water of the River Plate, chatting, on Isla Martin Garcia, looking at the stars and the storm over Buenos Aires. A life experience if ever there was one.<br />I see Dennis now and then.<br />Hedgehog seems like fun!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-48392007869025155652010-03-13T23:46:48.524+00:002010-03-13T23:46:48.524+00:00WOW!! I know who the last two Anonymous posts are ...WOW!! I know who the last two Anonymous posts are from! It just has to be!! But you are too modest in your description of your dance beginnings in London. Well Anonymous I'll be back in Argentina in May and maybe this time I'll make it to La Cumbre! Can't believe that after all these years of waiting for you to reply to my last emails here you pop up on Ms Hedgehog's blog. So what do I have to do to get you to write to me - do I have to start a blog site as well? Would a Fbook page do?Tango en el Cielonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-49358805190413213962010-03-13T01:38:05.090+00:002010-03-13T01:38:05.090+00:00Hedgehog, I´m glad I made your day. Please send my...Hedgehog, I´m glad I made your day. Please send my love to Danny and Diana if you see them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-82805923092768080582010-03-12T19:10:07.448+00:002010-03-12T19:10:07.448+00:00@Anonymous - You've made my day. Danny and Dia...@Anonymous - You've made my day. Danny and Diana still have a milonga, it's <a href="http://www.carablanca.co.uk" rel="nofollow">Carablanca</a> now, at a new location. They're not scared to change if it's an improvement, which I like.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-85207411644529113252010-03-12T14:11:38.189+00:002010-03-12T14:11:38.189+00:00Hedgehog!!! A wonderful description. I wonder if y...Hedgehog!!! A wonderful description. I wonder if you are as much fun in real life as you are describing all this. Brilliant.<br />I am a man, ex-tango dancer, thinking of starting again in La Cumbre - Cordoba - Argentina.<br />I once danced in London at Tango the Argentino way in 1991. The beginning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-54449422770797484092010-03-11T20:49:07.374+00:002010-03-11T20:49:07.374+00:00@Aisling
"@David: Then could it be that what ...@Aisling<br />"@David: Then could it be that what makes it difficult for you to associate tango and sleaziness is how we are supposed to hold our hips in tango?"<br />Well, amongst other things yes. <br /><br />I guess I'm just an innocent :)David Baileyhttp://www.learningtango.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-79967752109608167312010-03-11T16:27:03.608+00:002010-03-11T16:27:03.608+00:00@David: Then could it be that what makes it diffic...@David: Then could it be that what makes it difficult for you to associate tango and sleaziness is how we are supposed to hold our hips in tango?Aisling Tangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05060070008978291881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-51659800154952422892010-03-09T21:47:12.332+00:002010-03-09T21:47:12.332+00:00@DB - credit done.
@DB/Ghost - behave!@DB - credit done.<br />@DB/Ghost - behave!msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-49053287211412644252010-03-09T11:14:35.899+00:002010-03-09T11:14:35.899+00:00roflroflghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-62348401021669790472010-03-09T10:24:25.649+00:002010-03-09T10:24:25.649+00:00@Ghost:
"TBH the thing that most creeped me o...@Ghost:<br />"TBH the thing that most creeped me out was having the back of my neck stroked in close embrace."<br />Yeah, sorry about that, I was in the moment :)David Baileyhttp://www.learningtango.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-21749144839942379622010-03-09T00:51:35.193+00:002010-03-09T00:51:35.193+00:00@Anon
No, but it tickles!@Anon <br /><br />No, but it tickles!ghostnoreply@blogger.com