tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post4419411661438223661..comments2023-09-27T12:44:03.592+01:00Comments on MsHedgehog: Dragging you down and wasting your moneymsHedgehoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-47765650096438121052008-05-15T15:40:00.000+01:002008-05-15T15:40:00.000+01:00argh, i'm a month late. but it's such an excellen...argh, i'm a month late. but it's such an excellent topic, i'm going to put in my 2 cents anyway. :)<BR/><BR/>a couple of teachers i know (one man, one woman), dances with every student in the class individually. they're very honest, and pretty harsh with their feedback. "no! don't do this -- your lack of balance is not making this work. no! your head is in the way, no wonder that turn teeters over the follower. no! you can't cheat by hanging onto the leader..." and so forth.<BR/><BR/>it's not surprising though, that their group classes get smaller and smaller as the month progresses... but the ones who stick with it tend to be the better dancers at the milongas. :-/La Nuit Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03345647456053342056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-31454601963800969722008-04-08T19:48:00.000+01:002008-04-08T19:48:00.000+01:00@Alex, that's really interesting. Something I edit...@Alex, that's really interesting. Something I edited out of the post was about how I deal with the equivalent situation. What I often do when faced with a leader who's having serious but irrelevant problems, like horrible arm-steering, is pay careful attention to <EM>how</EM> I compensate, so that I develop those skills and also give myself the choice of whether to use them or not. If it's just problems with the content of the class itself, I'm fine with that, I just follow as best I can and concentrate on my own dancing, otherwise I'll sabotage his learning. The only thing that gives me trouble is where I'm totally prevented from even exploring the content of the class or finding out what I might learn from it. That can happen in the first situation.<BR/><BR/>One reason why you get a lot of women in classes that deal with things that are difficult to lead, like boleos and ganchos especially, might be that these are also quite difficult physical skills for the follower and most of us don't get enough practice.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-66871185322420625972008-04-08T04:57:00.000+01:002008-04-08T04:57:00.000+01:00Hola mshedge...how could you tell? You made me lau...Hola mshedge...how could you tell? You made me laugh!<BR/><BR/>Here's how I do it...when faced with a follower who is challenged in an advanced class, I see it as an opportunity for me to focus on and improve my lead. In other words, with an advanced follower, sometimes I get the element right away, then I am thinking "this is too easy, I must be doing something wrong". Then I rotate to a new partner, and it's a new angle on leading it.<BR/><BR/>If I can lead an beginning follower in a fairly advanced element, then we both benefit from it. I try to make the most of group classes like this (at a festival, where the mix is crap shoot) and make it a win-win scenario...if at all possible...AlexTangoFuegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13021896615610939454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-73375551678341220712008-04-07T19:28:00.000+01:002008-04-07T19:28:00.000+01:00@Bruno, I agree that's a really good plan, I know ...@Bruno, I agree that's a really good plan, I know someone who uses a version of it by getting followers with about a year's experience to take the class as leaders. It works well, for the reasons you mention.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-67059766760669070452008-04-07T16:28:00.000+01:002008-04-07T16:28:00.000+01:00Bruno makes an excellent point. Musicians and oth...Bruno makes an excellent point. Musicians and other artists who use tools other than their bodies, understand the importance of mastering the basics in order to move on to the next steps, and eventually to "mastering" their field.<BR/><BR/>I guess because we use our bodies, dancers - or in this case, tanguer@s - feel there is nothing to master. The exception would be ballet dancers, which if anyone has noticed, is where most of the "professional" tango dancers come from...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-78878815116104525732008-04-07T16:21:00.000+01:002008-04-07T16:21:00.000+01:00Some teachers will actually invite better students...Some teachers will actually invite better students/dancers to their beginners series. As in, virtually for free. This allows for the student to improve on the basics but also for the beginners to have a glimpse of what some things should feel like, easing the path to enlightnment ;-)<BR/><BR/>It's a good "trick" to get some students to improve some flaws and get beginners more motivated by seeing how mastering the basics allows for simple but nice dances, without complicated stuff. If they see another "student" having with a follower a nice dance with very simple stuff, they feel more confident. <BR/><BR/>It's hard for more seasoned dancers to go back to basics. Everyone in tango tends to build their ego as they get better and people will just rather believe they don't need it. Human nature.<BR/><BR/>Musicians know that there's no such thing as going back to basics. It's all part of technique, and all of it should be practiced all the time. If you're in a class in a pro-active way, you will always strive to think about new approaches to "basics" and challenge yourself. <BR/><BR/>I don't believe any serious tango dancer will ever be totally satisfied with their walk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-61584406214716746452008-04-07T00:16:00.000+01:002008-04-07T00:16:00.000+01:00@mshedgehog's last comment - i do believe that the...@mshedgehog's last comment - i do believe that the reasons teachers don't do what you suggest in the above message is (1) because they are not good at the process of teaching, or (2) they don't want to say anything that will upset their revenue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-762840641773272932008-04-06T23:02:00.000+01:002008-04-06T23:02:00.000+01:00@koolricky - I'm not even really asking for that. ...@koolricky - I'm not even really asking for that. I'm just asking for students to be informed about what they need to have mastered to benefit from the class, so they can make an adult choice about whether to take it or not. Only if that's happened can anybody whinge about them making the wrong decision.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-89577371101716549562008-04-06T22:42:00.000+01:002008-04-06T22:42:00.000+01:00Hi there!Excellent post. I think it is also import...Hi there!<BR/>Excellent post. I think it is also important for teachers to realise those people that are just below the level required but have the will and the capability to develop fast. <BR/>It's very good telling students that they have to do yet another set of improver class but sometimes that is also killing an eager student. <BR/>Each case is a case. <BR/>But I agree with you. It's a waste of money, time and patience to go to a class and face some people that want to run before they learnt how to walk...koolrickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12322560350770527634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-22140741363263138472008-04-06T19:46:00.000+01:002008-04-06T19:46:00.000+01:00Alex is at a festival, I think ;)Alex is at a festival, I think ;)msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-28631618282607765732008-04-06T15:56:00.000+01:002008-04-06T15:56:00.000+01:00Hola mshedge...Great post as always...teachers sho...Hola mshedge...<BR/><BR/>Great post as always...teachers should also be flayed...or at least flogged...for not touching on floorcraft/navigation in EVERY SINGLE class...it's obvious that it has to be beaten into the heads of most leaders...I think these jokers are so oblivious that they actually think the are good/advanced leaders...but it's impossible for 70 percent of them to dance 'constrained' by a virtual lane...AlexTangoFuegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13021896615610939454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-65833335185859923852008-04-06T11:26:00.000+01:002008-04-06T11:26:00.000+01:00Re-reading this, I realise I should have split it ...Re-reading this, I realise I should have split it up. The problem I was really thinking of was the advertising and management of the class as a whole; not of the individual student with a problem. It's the "beginners please sit down now, and this is what you need to know" bit that I really wanted input on.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-49319740817707499272008-04-06T02:32:00.000+01:002008-04-06T02:32:00.000+01:00I agree with debbi, a clever teacher should start ...I agree with debbi, a clever teacher should start teaching the basics but advertising it as<BR/><BR/> "<B>Deadly-Secret Techniques for the Super-Advanced Ultra-Tangueros</B>"<BR/><BR/>.. to which the men would flock no doubt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-32412476248483525292008-04-06T02:30:00.000+01:002008-04-06T02:30:00.000+01:00.. Sigh .. Reminds me of those tango dancers who a..... Sigh .. Reminds me of those tango dancers who after 6 months say "we only go to classes given by the world-class Argentine stars" (such as those you see on youtube). I've never enjoyed a dance with these types ..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-11493290424695269782008-04-06T02:19:00.000+01:002008-04-06T02:19:00.000+01:00excellent post!you are not stating the bleeding ob...excellent post!<BR/><BR/>you are not stating the bleeding obvious. i think two things are happening:<BR/><BR/>(1) teachers are good dancers themselves, but they can't actually teach - its a different skill set. the best teaching i've had has been by people who are not the best dancers - but are good at the process of "teaching".<BR/><BR/>(2) teachers are cynical and are running a business for profit with no space for the love of tango. they don't tell students things they don't want to hear. they don't make students do exercises that are boring but good for us. i've even heard some admit to similar business strategies (such as making sure the better leaders are interested, keeping the followers keen, and trickling down to the aspirational).<BR/><BR/>in between the above two categories there are many possibilities - teachers are either bad teachers or cynical business types. <BR/><BR/>i'm still looking for a teacher who will take me through a proper learning process, covering always the fundamentals - posture, movement, music, dissociation, cadence ...<BR/><BR/>the closest i've come to this is doing "beginner" classes taught by the lesser/shadow of the main teacher (who teaches the intermediates) ... they often can teach, can empathise with the learners, can bridge the gap, and work on these fundamentals.<BR/><BR/>its depressing when i see so-called intermediate classes full of people who are so obviously not intermediate .. and it becomes a waste of my precious time and my hard earned money.<BR/><BR/>by the way - i would recommend against the obligatory classes held before the weekend milongas .. they are usually a waste of time and done often as a money-spinner or people expect it. find yourself a "school" where the aim is only to teach and learn.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-89000331022076198562008-04-06T02:01:00.000+01:002008-04-06T02:01:00.000+01:00At the risk of sounding like the proverbial "bah h...At the risk of sounding like the proverbial "bah humbug-er"...<BR/><BR/>After over a decade of watching how people learn to tango, the ones usually taking the beginner basics are the "advanced" dancers who finally realize they need it :-)<BR/><BR/>The overwhelming emotions we feel when we first discover tango are just too overpowering to be rational about our approach to it. Fortunately, some people eventually realize that something is "missing" in their skill set and go about fixing it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-1585114673661082592008-04-06T01:40:00.000+01:002008-04-06T01:40:00.000+01:00The "basics for advanced dancers" sounds like a re...The "basics for advanced dancers" sounds like a really great idea. Who gave it? How did it go? Let's give them a public round of applause!msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-20686345862231968462008-04-06T01:36:00.000+01:002008-04-06T01:36:00.000+01:00I do agree more, the more I think about it, that i...I do agree more, the more I think about it, that it is a very difficult skill for teachers to give people the kind of feedback that's not quite what they expected. But I'm not really thinking about delusional students here, but the kind who really do just require some guidance and prompting and advice about which class they should or should not take when perhaps there is a choice available.msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-58348569152689044472008-04-06T01:04:00.000+01:002008-04-06T01:04:00.000+01:00On the flip side, at the Yale Festival this past w...On the flip side, at the Yale Festival this past week there was a "Basics for Advanced Dancers" where we all went back to the basics of posture, balance and axis... Maybe some folks need to dance for awhile before they realize that they need to nail down the basics? Of course, i believe we can always learn something new or enhance what we already know from a basics class.Debbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09194236468942331369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-41512317850707002372008-04-05T18:59:00.000+01:002008-04-05T18:59:00.000+01:00I really couldn't say. I have always sought out (a...I really couldn't say. I have always sought out (and appreciated) "feedback" in a class, but usually have to be proactive to receive it from teachers.<BR/><BR/>I think most of us underappreciate the basics, and their importance and relevance to the more advanced levels. I cannot count the times some yahoo with 2 hours of tango under his belt has tried to lead a gancho followed by a sacada, simultaneously clinging to me for dear life and balance while taking out my weight-bearing leg. <BR/><BR/>Pleas to try mastering something more basic first usually went completely unheeded.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps this has something to do with men "not stopping to ask for directions"? Believing they can figure it out on their own? Not recognizing that their undisciplined actions can send their partners into traction?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-24856232562849370052008-04-05T18:42:00.000+01:002008-04-05T18:42:00.000+01:00That's true, but it's not obvious to me that just ...That's true, but it's not obvious to me that just giving people some indication - rather than nothing - would in fact result in smaller class sizes over time. Is it your experience that it does?msHedgehoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719152265628932122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-43381186553621129242008-04-05T18:29:00.000+01:002008-04-05T18:29:00.000+01:00Great post, Ms. H., albeit one without an answer. ...Great post, Ms. H., albeit one without an answer. Debbi said it best: teachers need to earn money and students want to learn. <BR/><BR/>The problem is the inability (or interest) for students to be perfectly honest about their own skill set. Perhaps it is human nature? As in people disobeying traffic signs? The signs do NOT say "STOP. Except YOU Ms. H.", do they?<BR/><BR/>I've had many conversations with teachers about this - who all started out very idealistically wanting to teach walking, balance, foot and posture exercises. But the students want boleos, ganchos, and trapeze moves, and will go to a teacher who will them what they want.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8391293127288856260.post-1007460027954154322008-04-05T17:27:00.000+01:002008-04-05T17:27:00.000+01:00A topic that will always be timely!! I completely...A topic that will always be timely!! I completely understand your frustration. There are a couple of solutions I have resorted to when in class situations. First, I come with a partner whom I know is a solid dancer. This way we can choose not to rotate partners if we see that the overall level of the class is well below the advertised level. Second, if we do rotate and I am paired with someone who can't walk in a straight line, I will say something along the lines of "hmmm, that did not feel very stable to me. what did you feel? Can we try doing this before jumping into blah-blah?"<BR/>Then there have been teachers who have split the class into two levels, the general level and the level of those who are "getting" it faster. I bet that is exhausting for an instructor though. I also have taken class with instructors who encourage some people to stay on material that they have not mastered yet instead of moving on.<BR/><BR/>I don't think that there is any really good solution for instructors, they are in a tight spot because they need to make money. And yet, we want to learn.... I don't know, it's a tough area.<BR/><BR/>Good post though!!Debbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09194236468942331369noreply@blogger.com